VC heroes
Interview in Medal News in December 2006.
MEDAL NEWS recently had the rare opportunity to meet the doyen of medal collectors …
IN the past few years no conversation about the Victoria Cross was complete without some mention of Lord Michael Ashcroft, the businessman and philanthropist who was, reputedly, buying up as many of the Crosses as he could, both at auction and privately. It was always something of an “open secret” that Ashcroft, through agents, was behind some of the biggest auction purchases, but nobody really knew for certain what he’d bought or what was in the fabled collection. Then in April, in an article for the Spectator, Lord Ashcroft confirmed what many had suspected-he was indeed responsible for the purchase of a great many VCs and in a forthcoming book he was to let the world know, for the very first time, just what he had acquired.
That book is now available and makes incredible reading, detailing as it does the 142 Victoria Crosses in the collection, the largest such collection anywhere, representing over 10 per cent of all VCs ever awarded. However, there’s more to this, and the television series running on Channel Five in conjunction with the book’s launch, than one man’s desire to “show off” what he’s been fortunate enough to acquire. Behind this book there’s a real passion for the medals and for the stories of the men who won them, and behind the man himself there are some ambitious plans to ensure that this incredible collection is shared with everybody. MEDAL NEWS‘ Marketing Director, Philip Mussell, went to Lord Ashcroft’s Westminster offices to find out more.
Inevitably the first question asked was, of course, “What started you collecting?”
From an interest as a schoolboy, when I eventually asked my father the question, which schoolboys in the fifties invariably did “What did you do in the war Dad?” One day he decided to tell me and it transpired that he was in fact on one of the first landing craft on D-Day. He explained to me about being briefed on the 75 per cent casualties expected amongst him and his men (he was a Lieutenant), he described being in the landing craft, the smell of vomit, the smell of fear, of the landing craft ramp going down, the pinging of bullets around them, men being brought down immediately the ramp went down, going on to the beach where his Colonel was shot whilst standing next to him, being wounded himself and finally ordered from the beach because of his injuries. As a young boy, around 11 years old, I was enormously proud and impressed that this was my Dad. I went to the library to read all about D-Day, the battle that my Dad was in and then became fascinated with this concept of bravery. I heard about the Victoria Cross and couldn’t really understand why my Dad, from what he’d explained to me, hadn’t received one of these medals. From that I then read and read about the war, books from the library, the comics round at the time and in due course I found out that you could buy a Victoria Cross and I thought how wonderful this would be if one day I might be able to actually own one of these wonde1ful medals.
What was the first Victoria Cross you ever purchased and how much did it cost?
When I started my career, my interest in bravery and the idea of owning a VC never left me and I started to get catalogues from the auction houses and was lucky enough, in 1986 to be in a position to buy, for £29,000, the Victoria Cross of Acting Leading Seaman James Magennis (who along with Lieutenant Ian Fraser, won his Cross for a daring midget submarine operation against the Japanese cruiser Takao in the Johore Straits, Singapore 1945, Lord Ashcroft’ s Trust also owns Fraser’s VC) from Sotheby’s. I had expected it to be a one off purchase but as I held the Magennis VC and read the story of his heroism I cannot quite describe the feeling that went through me, a feeling which perhaps only people who are collectors would understand, it was almost electrifying and I realised at that point that this would become an insatiable passion.
Obviously the VC is your passion but would you class yourself as a “Medal Collector”? Do you collect other medals or is it just the Victoria Cross?
It’s like anything in life for me, I enjoy doing what is regarded as “Best of Breed” and the Victoria Cross is undoubtedly “Best of Breed”. Having said that, from time to time, there are other gallantry medals that have a special appeal. For example, again as a schoolboy, I was quite taken in by the story of the Cockleshell Heroes, so when the medals for one of them became available I was delighted to be able to purchase them. They might not have the same value as the VC but to me the story behind them was equally fascinating. So yes, I do have some other World War II and post-World War II Medals.
Apart from VCs, do you intend to collect other pre-World War II medals?
No, as any medal collector realises, if your scope expands to encompass everything, your walls will be absolutely filled. You need a speciality and mine is the Victoria Cross and a few others that have a particular appeal, but I can’t really identify in advance what that appeal is, I just know it when someone says “Look at these”!
Would you say then that World War II was the most interesting period of history for you?
Obviously that period is immensely interesting if only because of the scale of the conflict-it was, after all, a World War-but if you take a fascination with something then it’s hard to beat the Zulu War as something that has a romantic air to it, the battles of lsandhlwana and Rorke’s Drift are of immense interest to me. (The VC collection owns two Victoria Crosses from the Defence of Rorke’s Drift-that of Private Robert Jones and possibly the most famous Cross of all-that won by Lieutenant John Rouse Merriott Chard, Officer Commanding the Garrison at the Mission Station).
As far as military history is concerned do you feel that the teaching of military history is rather glossed over today as being somehow politically incorrect, particularly with the somewhat ” tainted view we have on imperialism?
It’s both lmperialism and Colonialism that in many areas are seen as politically incorrect and my personal opinion is that I would like to see a lot more of the teaching of the history of the United Kingdom without trying to judge both the standards and morality of those eras by today’s standards. To that end we intend to send a copy of the DVD, which accompanies the Television series (Channel 5, three consecutive Sundays starting November 19) and the book to every secondary school in the UK, along with a learning resource pack for teachers to work into the history section of the National Curriculum.
Do you have a favourite VC in the Collection?
I have several favourites, for different reasons. Quite obviously Chard, the Jackson VC (that to Sergeant Norman Jackson, who won his award whilst attempting to extinguish a fire in the Starboard wing of the Lancaster bomber in which he was travelling-by climbing out on the wing whilst the ‘plane was flying at 200 mph at 20,000 feet!), and I also like the story of Trigg, who solely on the word of the Germans received his award (Flying Officer Lloyd Allan Trigg was awarded his VC, despite being killed in action, after the survivors from the U-Boat that he sank shortly before being shot down, attested to his bravery), all these have a special appeal.
I also like the World War I flying aces, Rhodes-Moorehouse, Liddell and Leefe-Robinson. In a way though, all Victoria Crosses have some unique feature but maybe those I’ve mentioned are my favourites. If I had to choose one it would have to be Magennis’, but that’s because it was the one that really sparked my interest and got the collection started.
Has there ever been a group, VC or not that you “had to have” that you saw coming up at auction and felt you had to go for it?
In fact it wasn’t at auction but I had exactly that feeling about the Chard VC.
Is there any particular group now that you feel you would really like to have?
There are inevitably some VCs I’ll never be able to own but if you were to ask me, all things being equal which I would like to have, then I would like Guy Gibson’s Dambuster’s VC, or that of Stanley Hollis, the only VC on D-Day because my father was there. Or Lucas because his was the very first. Or maybe even one of the three who won VC and bar. I did actually make an offer for Upham’s VC and bar which was acceptable to the family but the New Zealand Government, quite rightly, wouldn’t allow it to leave the country. But wouldn’t that have been fantastic to have in the collection? (2nd Lieutenant-later Captain-Charles Upham of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force won his first VC in Crete in 1941 during the defence of the Island by British, New Zealand, Australian and Greek forces, and won his second for his part in the attack on Ruweisat Ridge in Egypt, 1942 during which he was captured).
Are there any VCs you feel weren’t justified. Any you feel should have been awarded but weren’t?
My answer to that would have to be “no”. Whilst there may be doubt about a VC, there may be other cases where another didn’t get a VC, and if you equated the two together they balance. But no matter what the award there has to be a blurring at the cut-off and if you dwell on it too much there is no mileage in it. I think you just say that in the case of all those who got them there was merit and maybe there were those who should have got them but didn’t, but we don’t have the reasons why they didn’t. It’s an interesting discussion but there is no point in dwelling on it as there’s nothing we can do about it. We have to say that there may have been some political background, that maybe some of those who got it shouldn’t have and maybe some of those who should have got it didn’t but no system is ever pe1fect and we have to recognise that the 1,351 men who have received the award are a pretty good representation of our bravest men.
Do you have any particular views on the balloted VCs? Those under Clause 13. Do you view them in any different way from those won by an individual’s act of valour?
I look upon those by examining the whole of the act rather than the individual and accept that there is no real alternative to the ballot system if you want to restrict numbers. However, having said that, why were 11 awarded at Rorke’s Drift? You could, I suppose, argue that particular case by saying that each of those won then was for an individual act of heroism whereas the balloted VCs tend to be for a collective act of bravery where it is impossible to distinguish between individuals. I don’t see that there’s really an alternative to the Ballot and we have to take it in that spirit.
Some collectors do consider them “inferior” to those awarded to individuals.
One can certainly understand that as a point of view and usually at auction they do not fetch the same price. But is price at auction a true measurement of quality? It’s a debatable point.
You have said previously that you have bought VCs that may otherwise have gone abroad. How do you feel about owning “foreign VCs”? Do you feel that they should be back in the country of the recipient’s origin?
The trust does own a few VCs of foreign nationals but they are all of the British Commonwealth. We don’t own any of the dozen or so that have been awarded to the Americans, Swiss, Swedes, Ukranians, etc. I do sympathise with those countries like New Zealand who regard the award so highly that they feel it shouldn’t leave their country, but many of those from the Commonwealth or their descendants did later settle in Britain and made this country their home. If ever any of those Commonwealth countries was holding a major exhibition of bravery awards and asked if I would make a loan for that, then, of course, I would have every sympathy for such a request.
Are there any stories of the recipients after they won their VC that particularly interest you?
I am fascinated and also saddened by the fact that a disproportionate number of VC winners end up sad and lonely at the end of their life, and the number who have committed suicide when the traumas have got to them.
The Victoria Cross is often seen as the ultimate award for bravery. Do you feel that the George Cross (and its predecessors) is undervalued in comparison?
It’s definitely undervalued, there’s no doubt about it, but sadly if simply doesn’t have the same cache, romance or reputation as the VC. They aren’t “heat of battle awards” but you cannot underestimate or undervalue the sheer bravery of a bomb disposal expert who walks toward that bomb and with cold courage starts dismantling it.
The original idea of the Victoria Cross was that it was a” classless honour” to be awarded across the ranks-do you think that has been achieved? And do you feel that the 1993 honours review was a step in the right direction in continuing that ideal?
In the main yes. I believe honours should be classless but I will not criticise what has gone before. I am not a critic of the past, those were the standards of the day and like anything else, be it politics or social attitude, we change over time-we must accept change as progress but we mustn’t then try and change our history.
As you’ve rightly pointed out your collection is as much about the men and their bravery as the medals. Have you ever visited any graves or memorials to recipients? Just to let them know, if you will, that they are still remembered?
I see the Victoria Cross as the tangible relic of a brave act; it’s the act of heroism and the idea of bravery itself, and the men behind it that fascinates me so, yes I have. I recently took the Leefe-Robinson VC to his grave, placed it on his grave and then went 200 yards or so away and had a drink in the Leefe-Robinson pub in his memory. I’ve also visited a few of the sites where VCs were won; I’ve visited Mount Loangdon on the Falkland Islands where Sgt Ian McKay won his VC. I’ve been to the site of the Char,ge of the Light Brigade, to where the Gallipoli Landings took place and, of course, to Rorke’s Drift.
The thing that everybody really wants to know is how will this collection go on display? The consensus of opinion is that you will do what so many museums do and not put up the real medal groups but replica VCs.
That will not happen! The location is highly likely to be in the Central London area, not only because it’s our capital city but also because it’s where more tourists are, particularly Commonwealth visitors and it’s hard to envisage where else would have the maximum impact. That’s not me meaning to be derogatory about any other location but it just makes more sense. I’m hoping that I can make arrangements with an appropriate place that will not only display my collection, but also allow others to display their VCs and make it a centre of excellence for bravery. If, for example, it was at the Imperial War Museum, then with the number they have added to the number I have, it would guarantee a fascinating collection. I would also suggest to family members who don’t wish to sell their Victoria Crosses, that this place would be an ideal location for their awards to be displayed. I hope that a lot of those who may even now regret that their VC has left the family, as inevitably happens, will feel that this centre of excellence, whilst not maybe their first choice as to what they might otherwise have liked, is in fact, a very acceptable second choice.
There seems little point in displaying replicas, any one can do that. So you will display the originals?
I wouldn’t have it any other way. We also have a lot of memorabilia associated with the VCs, for example for Leefe-Robinson we also have the steering wheel of the Zeppelin that he shot down and all that will be on display too. I believe that wherever possible everything should be kept together and I hope that as people hear of this centre of excellence and know what the collection consists of, they too may have memorabilia such as log books, letters, or other items, which could also form part of this collection.
Is there a time frame for this?
No, there’s no pressure, and whilst we are already in preliminary discussions I’d rather take a little longer and get it right than rush at it and get it wrong.
You mentioned the Imperial War Museum. Do you see it as being a separate gallery or an independent site?
I think that depends; the IWM do have, for example, the Churchill Museum which is at a different site and all these are the sort of things we’ll be discussing.
Do you feel that it is right that medals should be in the hands of collectors or do you think they should be in regiments, museums or on display?
You can’t just restrict that question to medals as there are many wonderful works of art, for example, that remain in private hands and it might seem a shame not to have them seen by everyone. I feel that with the quantity that I have in my collection, representing as it does over ten per cent of all the VCs ever awarded, then I believe that they should be on display, but there is no obligation upon anyone who collects anything. They have a choice to have it for their private enjoyment or whatever they decide to do and nobody should be criticised for that choice.
Now you’ve published a book detailing your collection is that an end to it? Will you stop collecting now or is there to be a volume II?
I will still continue collecting but not, I think, at the same pace as in the past. It’s hard to say at what pace, as the collection has already taken a large proportion of those medals that are “liquid”, and available for sale, so there simply aren’t that many likely to be available to be purchased. The policy of the collection has always been never to “go after” a VC, we have never “ambulance-chased”. We’ve only purchased when a VC has been up for auction or where we have been approached directly. Most importantly, we have only ever purchased a VC where the decision to sell has already been made. (Since this interview and the publication of the book the trust has acquired three more VCs, two at auction and one by private treaty).
Lord Ashcroft, thank you for sparing the time to talk to me. I am sure that your replies will be of immense interest to medal collectors all over the world and to MEDAL NEWS readers in particular.
We are aware that in the past concerns have been expressed regarding both Lord Ashcroft’s motives for amassing this collection and also the fate of the medals. However, having now met him we can confirm that he is not simply a buyer of medals but a man who cares deeply about the awards and the stories of the men behind them. Thanks to Lord Ashcroft we will all, in the fullness of time, be able to enjoy the most important and stunning collection of Victoria Crosses ever put together. We will, of course, keep readers informed about the progress of the National Centre for Excellence proposed by Lord Ashcroft. In the meantime it will be interesting to hear readers opinions. Where do you think the Centre should be located? Should it have its own identity or should it be part of an existing institution? Should other museums with VCs hidden away in their bank vaults be encouraged to loan their real medals to the Centre? Will the Centre be a good repository for the families of VC winners to place their medals in safety? Let us know your thoughts on this fascinating subject.